Innovating in a Box

Scheduled for: September 8th, 2021, 12:00 pm PT / Category: Interviews

How to push the limits while remaining true to the business mission.

Paul Hanges is the CEO of JibJab, a leading independent provider of social expression content specializing in digital branded entertainment eCards, satires, messages and now, personalized books! As an accomplished digital media, marketing and technology leader, Paul has a wealth of experience overseeing growth strategies for large-scale content production studios, and has been on the forefront of the digital branded entertainment experience for more than a decade.

Paul joined JibJab in 2016 as its chief operating officer where he was responsible for the day-to-day operations of the studio, in addition to direction and performance of the legal, accounting, paid media acquisition and customer service teams. Since starting at the company, Paul has introduced new performance management processes, revamped budgeting and forecasting modeling, and secured several new production financing deals for the company. He was named CEO in January of 2019 after the company was acquired by Catapult Capital.

Prior to JibJab, Paul served as senior vice president of operations at Evolve Media, a digital publisher and ad sales company. At Evolve Media, Paul oversaw a team of more than 50 employees that serviced over $50MM of global ad revenues and set strategies to counteract the largest challenges in the ad industry, including viewability, ad fraud, and ad blocking. Through his tenure at Evolve Media, Paul also served as general manager of audience development for CrowdIgnite, and managing director of their gaming vertical.

Podcast

Transcript

Tullio:

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of dojo.live. Today is September 8th, Wednesday, September 8th, 2021. I’m Tullio Siragusa broadcasting from Southern California. I’m joined today by Carlos Ponce in Cuernavaca Mexico and Kim Lantis in Hermosillo, Mexico, and our guest Paul Hanges, from JibJab, who’s joining us today. We’re excited to speak with him. We’re talking about innovating in a box. Now, this is an interesting topic, right? ‘cause typically when we think of innovation, it’s about thinking of things outside the box. So, it should be an interesting conversation, but before we kick out, kick it off, let’s get to know our, our guest a little bit. Paul, welcome to the show. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself.

Paul:

Hey thanks for having me, first and foremost. My name is Paul Hanges located here in Los Angeles, California and really excited to talk about our experiences. I come from a non-technical background from business development and marketing and sales. And so I’m really excited to talk about how we run the company and all the different things that we do and, and our experiences delivering joy to billions of people.

Tullio:

Awesome. So let’s talk about that. The company’s JibJab [,,,] What a cool name! What do you guys do? (in a nutshell).

Paul:

Jibjab has been deemed the “online cockroach” because we’ve been around for so long had our origins back in 1999. Two brothers founded the company in a New York garage. One was an investment banker, one went to art school, and they just said, “Hey, it’s the rise of the internet […] and the modem… deliver. let’s deliver really fun and funny content that people draw from” and that just spawned the company that it is today. A lot of people know us from this land, which is our political satire in 2004 that named them people of the year. But really what the company is today is an online greetings and social expression company … where we have high end greeting cards that you can put your face into to deliver joy to people by sending and sharing them. And we’ve been doing that piece of the business since 2007 and now expanding on that with our newest product called Starring You books.

Tullio:

All right. Well, let’s get, let’s get to know you guys a little bit, bit more today’s topic, Carlos.

Carlos:

Absolutely, absolutely Tullio. We’re gonna be speaking the topic as chosen by our guest today is innovating in a box. So we’re gonna be answering the question on how to push limits while remaining true to the business mission. So, Paul, let’s start with the first question that I have for you today, which is… why did you choose this particular topic and why did you feel it was relevant for today’s day and age? Thank you.

Paul:

Yeah. So when we think about the JibJab company we always say that in our e-cards you can put your face in it to personalize it. And back in 2000 7, 8, 9, people are like, oh, that’s amazing technology. But when you say it today, they kind of go: “…technology, like, what does that mean?” Like you put your face on something, I go to Snapchat and it’s an AR lens and all these different facial elements, there’s deep fake now and everything else. And we’re still there with a little oversized face and a marionette jaw because that’s what we do. And there is tech […] technology behind it, but it’s also core to what we do and how we deliver happiness. And I felt like I’ve had so many people come to me and say, “let’s do deep fake”, or “let’s do this”. And we’re missing out on this next opportunity. And we have to look back and say, we built a very solid business, that’s subscription-based and direct to consumer that people love. And if we were to automatically go and try every shiny new toy, it may not be the best thing for the business. So, I felt like as we have these conversations and definitely as CEO trying to direct and know which direction we want to go as a company keeping that at the forefront of your mind is very important because we’re bombarded with so many opportunities every single day.

Carlos:

Right, you mentioned the big shiny thing and I totally get that part. Sometimes we’re just compelled, right. However, I, I love the simplicity, the simplicity of, as you mentioned, the, the big face and, and the marionette jaw and all that, the, yeah. So, and you’re staying away from the complexities of, for example deep fakes and all that. So, it kind of reminds me of the, of the I remember “Elf Yourself”, that was one of the first applications that I saw somewhere. It,I thought it was really cool. It was fun. So, in my question to you, because of this simplicity, how do you, who’s your, your main audience who, who, who have you discovered that is more receptive to this kind of very nice, very, very pleasing simplicity.

Paul:

So let me be clear. When we talk about putting a face on things and not necessarily the complexity of deep fakes – and that is very, very difficult – but you can work with companies to implement their technology on it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but we’re not trying to replace reality. We want someone to know when you send a card, you know, exactly who it is that’s in there. And we give like a little funny element with the marionette jaw, as opposed to making things perfect, where they’re talking. Cause again, we’re not replacing reality. At the end of the day, we wanna make things fun and funny and having it a little bit off anatomically is part of that joy. But who’s our core demo? Like at the end of the day, our core product of JibJab greeting cards is a greeting card company. We started in 2007, ‘cause we thought that there was a gap with the other large players in the space who didn’t really have a lot of creativity to it, or weren’t pushing the boundaries. And at the end of the day, it’s still the 35 to 55-year-old female as the core demographic that’s going into our greeting cards. They’re the ones who would typically go to Target or CBS or one of the other stores and get a paper greeting card, but now they’re doing it online.

Carlos:

Great. Thank you. Thank you.

Tullio:

So, I wanna, I wanna go back to the theme a little bit ‘cause I’m curious as to what your thought – or at least the context behind it – was. Innovating in a box and then the actual how to push the limits while remaining true to the business mission. What are your thoughts around innovating in a box? What were you thinking there?

Paul:

Yeah. So, a lot of people think like, oh, the greeting card space, it’s pretty simple. You just create something, and someone sends it off via email. But there’s so much nuances that you can do within it. And there’s so many dynamics both inside and outside of the company that can help shape those behaviors and the way that we think of innovations, isn’t always something that you can see and feel. It’s, it may be something in the experience or the flow. You guys mentioned, Carlos, you mentioned it’s so easy to create it. That is the number one value that we have within JibJab and narrowing down all of those steps to do it. I can’t tell you how many people that come to us and say, I snap a picture and I’m done and I send it. That’s all I have to do. We have the technology that can place your head perfectly set up the jaw cut for you and you just pick a card and send it. And that didn’t come overnight. It required a lot of integrations, a lot of different things to do, but we also think we differentiate from the Giphys, the Tenors or some of these other companies, because whatever we do, you know it has high quality content behind it. And it’s our investment in our art team. It’s the investment in the process that even if you had five minutes or 30 seconds, you can send something that you know, is gonna make someone smile. And so there’s so many intricacies behind that. That’s why I feel like innovating in a box is a perfect topic to discuss and all the different things that we’re doing.

Tullio:

Okay. So I get it. You can think of many publishers, including one big network we know very well, that used to be a lot simpler and then it complicated and added so many more features. Sometimes more is less, right? So, innovation can happen within confine of something simple yet rich. When you mentioned the thought of pushing the limits while still staying focused on the business mission, what was your thinking with {…} along those lines? How are you guys doing that as a business? What’s your thought process there?

Paul:

Yeah. So there’s really two pieces of that. We look at it in terms of expanding into new products and how we take the core of what makes JibJab JibJab and expand it out to other categories. And then also how we advance the specific product. So I’ll take both of those I’ll touch on both of those. The first is the other product side. The first is when we look at what JibJab is, we’re a company that helps people deliver joy and provide utility. And utility is like, kind of a weird word, ‘cause you don’t know what it means to everybody. And it doesn’t sound like it delivers joy, but anything that’s a celebration, a birthday in anniversary the holidays, Halloween, anything that’s there, that’s an event that you celebrate, we want to be a part of. And when we think about our product expansion, we wanna be known and we are known as the company that allows you to put your face in it. So, when we launch new categories, like our new books product called Starring You books, it’s a physical keepsake that you can be the star of the story. And you send it to someone else for their birthday. You can customize all of those different pages, but at its core, it’s high quality artwork, which JibJab is known for. And you can put your face in it to personalize it as a memorable keepsake. And as we continue to expand all these different categories, that’s what I mean, we’re innovating in new spaces, but using the core of what people love about JibJab to really, like, set the tone of when I think of JibJab, this is what I get and we’re constantly expanding. The second part of it is, how do we make our existing product that much better? Simplicity is key for onboarding. Someone comes with something intent in their mind. I wanna send a birthday card. How do we make that as easy as possible, but what’s the next step to that? Well, people used to go on someone’s Facebook wall and write happy birthday. And we realized that part of the appeal of JibJab is also not locking people in. We’re not a social network. We don’t wanna be a social network. We wanna make it as easy as possible for someone to share happiness, no matter where they’re having that conversation. So we spent a lot of time going from back in 2007, 2008. Email is the number one form of communication and making it as easy as possible to share an email. And then when things move to the Facebook wall, making those technological advancements to make sure you can easily share it to Facebook. And then when iOS came out with iOS 10 and allowed people to create iMessage extensions, we threw out our whole roadmap and said, how can we make it as easy as possible for people to share in text message? And that led to a whole different slew of ideas of let’s reduce the content format from a minute to 30 to 20 seconds. Why well, people can then share it and consume it in their text message, so they never had to leave. And we saw those kinds of things, like when we think about the product, knowing we’re core to allowing people to deliver fun and be funny, no matter where they’re having that conversation, and it led us to have all these iterations on the product to, to meet that core mission; when people, other people may be exploring other shiny objects, we stay true to what we do. And we’ve cultivated a very strong, loyal following.

Kim:

Yeah. Like what I, what I see is that you take your box with you and you explore other boxes is, is more like, because you have your core mission, you know, bring joy, let’s have high quality artwork, let’s make it as simple as possible let’s celebrate. And so, with those cores, then you could […] how could we do that in these other fields? And I think it’s great. Going back to what you said earlier about creating this, this energy, this space for your designers, for your quality artwork, what does that look like at JibJab, like I’m envisioning, I mean, in my mind I have like this end scene of Monsters Inc., you know, where there’s the laugh floor and everybody’s having a party, like what do you do to inspire creativity with your team?

Paul:

Yeah. The easiest way that I can answer that is, I get outta their way. I, you notice that when I introduce myself in the company, no part of that said “creative”. And I know my boundaries, I’m very fortunate to have a CCO and partner in the business. Mauro Gotti, who I look at as just like a visionary in that space. And the biggest thing is my business owner is giving him the space and trusting his ability to do it. But ultimately at the end of the day, everything we tackle, we say, is this gonna make someone laugh or smile? And if the answer is no, let’s not do it. So there’s been tons of projects that we’ve started. Didn’t go the direction we wanted and just scrap it and we have to be okay with that failure and continuing to iterate. Now, he’s probably the best to say, how do you continue to do that? But really for me, it’s about giving them space, knowing what I know and knowing what I don’t and then moving on.

Kim:

Thank you. And my final question before I hand it off to someone else is, when it comes to art, when it comes to what you’re doing, two really big, big things that are happening out or the need for [INAUDIBLE]as well as the danger of the “cancel” culture. So how do you go about including everyone and making JibJab more accessible to [INAUDIBLE] creeds, ages? You know, also like ride that line of not knowing if this is going to get me in trouble or not. Is my question clear?

Paul:

It is. And I don’t know if it has a good answer. Because really like it, it’s hard, especially when I look what was missing on all this, there were two founders who ran the business up until 2018. I was very fortunate to be working under them as CEO, COO for two years before I stepped into the CEO role. And the core JibJab is political. We are known for this land, which was making fun of George Bush and John Kerry. And we didn’t wanna lose that. But part of it, when we were seeing like different things, like we said, is this too off-limits, we can’t do it, but that’s part of our core. And so we’ve taken baby steps. But then also like a, a larger one last year with our, our return of the year in review, which is what we are known for, for many, many years there. But really what we say is like, you have to be able to poke both sides and make it fun and funny. Yeah. And so we try and be objective on that and make fun of everybody and make it something people wanna share a laugh over. It actually got to the point that we were a part of the Facebook ad boycott in August or July of, of 2020 a business like ours. That’s B2C relies very heavily on Facebook advertising as one of our core acquisition channels. But when we started looking and thinking back, we said this, the, the, the company and what people are standing for on the boycotts is probably leading to some of the ability not to push the boundaries and release content that’s fun and funny and, and making fun of a lot of people. So we felt it was really important to be a part of that. But also, like, we continue to produce that content. We may be taking a different angle or some different liberties to, to ensure that there is some evenness. But we ultimately try and make it fun and funny, like for example, and I’ll wrap this up pretty quickly. We did an earth day video about “just put it in the blue bin”. Right. You think that’d be non-controversial. But we have a bunch of people on one side that say “don’t normalize the use of plastic”, which didn’t even like come to my mind when we created it. And then people on the other side saying, “I can’t believe [INAUDIBLE] like you’re saying, climate change is a thing. And I’m like, we’re just trying to make something pretty funny about like, put something in the blue bin or we’re gonna, you know be mad at you. But that led us to do a “go out and vote” video and funniness, and then the, of return of our 20/20 year in review, because the year of the pandemic we had to, and that one, we made fun of absolutely everything and everybody.

Kim:

[INAUDIBLE]

Tullio:

Look, I, I actually kind of reminds me of the Howard Stern day, you know, he had very loyal listeners and also a lot of hater listeners and they both listened. So controversy gets people to check in and, and listen. So, so it, you know, you end up if you do it right, you can… he can capitalize on that movement. Go ahead, Carlos. I think you had a question.

Carlos:

Oh yeah. Just a simple thing. I see that it’s not just the greeting part greeting card part, because it’s not just one still graphic, I see you have video as well. So, as it pertains to the […] I’m, I’m just gonna add something […] video, so you have video, you have graphics, you have cartoons, you have a number of elements that are visual, that are very creative in nature. So how do you, how do you stay on […] how do you keep consistency? Because you have a lot of elements. How do you keep consistency to make sure that you are – let’s call it while you’re pushing limits – while, while remaining true to the business mission in terms of the creative part of the operation?

Paul:

Yeah, so the different artistic styles is very much intentional. So the majority of our greeting cards now are actually videos. It’s actually, it always boggles my mind. We have, we have over 1500 cards in our catalog. That’s been built over the last 13 years or so. And people, like, when you think about a Giphy or a Tenor, they’re like, that’s it, like we have millions of pieces of content. All of these pieces are highly curated. They’re storyboarded, our stop motion ones can take two to three months to create. But we do it all very intentionally and we have these different artistic styles because we know they’ll stand the test of time. If we were to only create things in 2D or only create things in a certain element, they’re gonna look dated when you look back five years from now. And when we think about some of the holidays -and I’ll use Christmas, ‘cause that’s one of our larger holidays – when you think about Christmas movies, your favorite ones are typically the same ones every single year, ‘cuz you don’t get burnt out from them every single year, but you know, they’re all high quality, they’re nostalgic and a lot of ’em are fun and evoke, like, really positive emotions. So, when we do this, like it could cost us 200, 300 thousand dollars to create a new card. But we wanna do it cause we know it’s gonna stand the test of time. And typically our most popular cards are the most popular ones year in and year out because of it. So it is very difficult. But it’s also very, very intentional because we know these are gonna be cards that people come back to each and every year and we don’t wanna be stuck in the moment where you say, “oh, that was created in 2010!” ‘cause they went through their 2D phase, or “that was very 2013” ‘cause it was their stop-motion phase mm-hmm [INAUDIBLE] so very, very intentional.

Carlos:

I see. Thank you. Appreciate it. Cool. So back to you Tullio.

Tullio:

I was just, I just think, you know, like with your political roots, I mean the, the kind of stuff that must have been created back during the campaign between Trump and Biden, it must have been hilarious. I’m gonna have to research some of that stuff to see what comes up. Yeah.

Paul:

So, so that was actually a really interesting ‘cause that was getting on you know, Kim’s question about what do you do? What is the environment? And, and that was one where we said like, look, the environment is very, very loud right now. We don’t know we can do. So we actually did not put out a long like election video, although we haven’t really done those or hadn’t done those at that point for the 2012 election among other things. But we did put out some of our gifs and things that were more neutral that could be used in either way. ‘Cause when we talk about innovating in a box in our app, you could also put your own text overlaid on top of one of the gifs or one of the other videos. So, we said, “let’s do something where Hillary is dancing, right? And then you can put whatever you want on it. Trump is dancing, put whatever you want on it”. So, we did take a more foundational approach, and then people can add whatever they wanted to it. But now we’ve started to go back into that, especially like with our last year in review of saying, “Hey, we shouldn’t be shying away from this. Let’s advance that conversation and maybe reduce some barriers by letting people share it with people on both sides of the spectrum and, and have a laugh”.

Tullio:

How do you guys go about prioritizing those things? Like, how do you validate what the sentiment of the consumer is as it relates to being open to certain things versus how others, I get the idea of, you know, it’s one thing, putting a log in the fire when it’s contained in the fireplace. It’s another thing when the wall’s on fire, right? You, you’re not gonna throw another log while the wall’s on fire. So we understand that from a societal perspective, the wall was on fire. But so how do you guys go by validating that you have a, a way where you connect with certain consumer, you have a, a user group. How do you guys do that?

Paul:

So, with most art and creative it’s got instinct and trusting people who have done this for a very long time. So the actual direction of some things, I again rely on my CCO to do it. Luckily we, we work in a business that has ebbs and flows. We are seasonal based businesses where we see spikes in Q4. It runs through Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day, Father’s day. And right now over the summer, there’s not a lot of holidays. There’s birthdays every single day, which is great. And I love it, but you don’t see like spikes in the business like you do in December. So strategically think like when are different times that you can try this and see what it’s like. What, um, what I’ve realized is that like, we use that as our testing tool, and we push the boundaries a little bit. So, like for Earth Day, when things aren’t as busy, we put out that video, we gauge feedback from our customer support team. We can see all the metrics on site to how many people are sending it, sharing it, creating it, but not actually sending it out to give us a good sense of just where the sentiment is. And then that will help dictate future editorial decisions. That earth day one was one of the main reasons why we decided to do year and review 2020, because it was shared very well. People, like, responded positively, positively to it, for the most part – of course, we always get some, some negative feedback, no matter what you post. But we look at it from that perspective and use the data on our site and also push during our slow season.

Tullio:

It’s, it’s interesting listening to you out the business model that you have, and I can’t help but wonder how COVID in the past 15 months, 16 months, however long it’s been, has impacted the traditional greeting cards business, you know, the physical grabbing of a card, mailing of a card, versus people and moving on more of a digital medium with everything being done online with Zoom and video, has that impacted you guys in a positive way in terms of more adoption overall? How’s that impacted the online greeting business?

Paul:

So I can only speak for our business. But we adapted very well to COVID in the year of 2020. Our creative team pumped out more content than they ever had. That was timely. And we looked at the moment and said, we need to laugh. People are still gonna have birthdays and they still gonna have to celebrate. And so we released happy quarantine birthday which has been all of last year, our number one card. And for the first half of this year, is still our number one card on the site. We did other things in terms of thank you to essential workers and we made graduation cards for free when people couldn’t have that in person. But absolutely like when people think about digital greeting cards, they say, can it still be personable? Like there’s nothing like getting a handwritten card until you realize like all of those cards, 90% of them, you write their name on top and you sign your name, and you send it off and you think whatever’s written in the middle from that company is gonna, like, get the job done. And it, it does all the time. And so we found that, yes, there’s more adoption. We think one of our differentiators, and again, people always say quotes of “put your face in it” as technology, but what people wanted more than anything else during the last year is to see people. And so Easter is normally an okay holiday for us, but it was the first holiday that people couldn’t spend with family. So what better way than sending you and four of other of your family members dancing in chicken dance outfits saying “happy Easter”?. And we saw a massive uptick in usage and shareage [SIC] of those cards. Look, we’re not gonna be a company that doesn’t have a paywall and all of our cards are gonna go viral. We are a paid subscription and we have been since 2007, people forget that about our site. They’re like, “oh, you used to have a card that was free!”. No we’ve always been a paid product and we’re very proud of the level of quality of content that we put out. And we pair it with music that we pay license rights to, to do and all that costs money and we want to be sure that we’re providing the number one highest value to our product, that people are happy and very thankful to send to friends and family. So it was a great year for us because we were able to help deliver joy to everyone else, which speaks to our core, our core values and our core mission. So, difficult time, but very happy that we could play even a little part of making some people smile.

Carlos:

Paul we are approaching the final segment of today’s conversation and you touched something – your core values. So I’d like to touch on that a little bit. We might have folks out there who might be watching, who, I don’t know, who might wanna come work for you at some point, so what is your company like in terms of the, what what’s important for, or you as a company, or how would you define your company culture that would probably make sure that you would reel in the best talent of the best of the best to match, align it with your core mission and your company culture. What would you tell to these people?

Paul:

Yeah. look, we, we have a slew of core values. I’m not gonna run through all of them, but I’ll run through a few, ‘cause they’re all very important. But it all starts with trust and transparency. Everything that I do within the company is that trust and transparency. People’s minds, if you don’t give them all the information, can run off in many multitudes of ways. That is so different than if you just give ’em all the facts. I also firmly believe that what I don’t know, I don’t know. I hire people to be able to [INAUDIBLE] the adage of, like, “you don’t hire smart people and tell ’em what to do. You hire them to tell you what to do”. And I try and everything I do to take that to the next level. I ultimately say these are our priorities and our goals through that trust and transparency and say, how do we get there? We also, as one of our core values, has health have, has healthy debate. I believe good ideas come from all parts of the organization. And if you don’t have your decision or, or your, or your opinion chosen, you know, why because then it’ll help educate everyone on what’s that next step and what can I do to refine my idea, to get it something adopted into the product. So ultimately like it’s like everyone else, you try and push down authority as far as possible. I, my job is considered a success if I’m bored because it means I’ve removed every single roadblock from my team, and they feel empowered to make those decisions. And if you’re gonna fail, we celebrate it and just try not to do it in the same way twice. So that’s, that’s the environment we try and create. Are we always successful? No, we have flaws like everyone else. But I’m really excited about the culture we, and, and what we have on the roadmap of the next two years.

Carlos:

So, it’s embrace failure, but just make sure that it doesn’t happen twice, the same thing, right?

Kim:

One quick question before we wrap up here. What’s your personal JibJab, Paul?

Paul:

Oh, man. So it it’s in the moment, right? So my favorite one my favorite one was always Quarantineoween because it was like, it was a really interesting time for me personally. I have a four year old and a six year old. They were really super excited about Halloween this last year and it just didn’t feel right. And Quarantineoween has always like stood out as one of my favorites, even though it’s not very timely, Halloween’s coming up now. But it’s in the moment. My daughters sadly and also endearingly love JibJab. every morning when they come down, they each get to make one JibJab. And for about a month straight, that was the only card that they were playing even after Halloween. So for me personally it’s that one, but like I said, we have over 1500, no matter which one you pick, you’re gonna love it and have a good time. That’s what makes us, us.

Tullio:

All right. Well, we’re up on time. It’s been a pleasure to have you with us, Paul. Thanks for sharing your company’s story and the success you guys are having in the marketplace, bringing more joy into people’s lives. I, I downloaded the app while we were talking because I intend to use it. I’ve got my perfect five-year old’s birthday coming up and I’m like, “I wanna create a little book for her with personalized on it”. That’s kind of cool. That’s super cool. So we wish you a lot of success. Just stay with us as we go off the air. Carlos, tomorrow we have a replay. Do we know what the replay’s gonna be? We’re, we’re not live tomorrow. We get our All Hands.

Carlos:

We’re, we most likely, we’re most likely we’re gonna have a re-broadcast, but I don’t, I don’t I, I wouldn’t dare to announce it because I don’t know what that would be.

Tullio:

Well, we’ll announce it at some point tonight or tomorrow.

Carlos:

Just stay tuned. Right, exactly.

Tullio:

We we’ll have something for you guys tomorrow at 12 o’clock Pacific. And then come back Monday for The Recap Show. Do we want to announce what we got coming up next week?

Carlos:

Oh sure! We got, actually, we got, we got a full week. I mean, real quick. So, we got Getwell Network, then we also, we’re gonna be speaking with ProQuoAI and, and also we are, we’ll have, we’ll be featuring Gary Goldberg the founder and CEO of SquadLocker. So that’s what we have. We have a full week ahead. So folks join us next week, right here in dojo.live at 12:00 PM Pacific, and remember: stay safe, everyone.

Kim:

Thank you.

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